Authority & jurisprudence in the land of our fathers

 

An interview with

Leanne Wood AM

Leader 
Plaid Cymru, Party of Wales

The Laws in Wales Acts 1535 and 1542 were parliamentary measures by which Wales became a part of the Kingdom of England, thereby the legal system of England was extended to Wales. Prior to this and since the final conquest of Wales by the English King Edward I, from 1284 AD the Statute of Rhuddlan had provided a constitutional basis of law, which had replaced the original codified system of Welsh law Cyfraith Hywel (Laws of Hywel Dda) dating back to the reign of King Hywel Dda (AD 880-950). 

Leanne Wood is a passionate believer in a devolved justice system for Wales. Before becoming the first female leader of Plaid Cymru, she had worked as a probation officer including serving as the co-Chair of the National Association of Probation Officers between 1998-2000. She had also lectured on Social Policy at Cardiff University until her election to the National Assembly for Wales in 2003. 

TheLawMap: What would be the principal benefits of a devolved criminal justice system for the people of Wales?

I have long been an advocate of devolving the criminal justice system to Wales. This is not just for devolution’s sake but so that we can craft a criminal justice system that works better for Wales. The advantages of such a system are fully outlined in our policy paper Making Our Communities Safer which is available through the Plaid Cymru website.

The thrust of the paper is to show that the criminal justice system is not working as well as it can for Wales. Re-offending rates are too high, we have an overcrowded prison population and levels of suicide and substance misuse are also too high. With more emphasis on treating the causes of crime rather than the symptoms, we could develop a system here that is much better for society.

TheLawMap: What makes you believe that the legal fraternity in Wales would support efforts to establish a devolved jurisdiction?

Why would they not? The criminal justice system has already been devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland so there is clear precedent for this. It is in everybody’s interest to have a system that works smarter and delivers better outcomes for offenders and communities. Evidence show a majority of the Welsh public are in favour of the devolution of the criminal justice system as well as further powers in general and it makes sense now that the Assembly has primary law making powers.
 
TheLawMap: You have an extensive knowledge of the probation service. Latest reports are suggesting that our prisons are in crisis due to staff shortages, violence, bullying, self-harm and suicides soaring, and many young prisoners in particular laying idle behind their locked doors during the working day. Is there an easy fix? 
 
As the policy paper Making Our Communities Safer argues, much of these problems have stemmed from successive Westminster Governments seeking to treat the symptoms, rather than the causes of crime. There are no quick and easy answers to remedying decades of bad policy in the criminal justice system that has delivered an overcrowded prison population and unacceptable re-offending rates.

The privatisation of the probation service is the latest example of ideologically driven policy that pays little or no attention to the views of professionals on the ground or to what works in terms of reducing offending rates.  Many of the solutions are long-term ones such as Plaid Cymru's proposals for a 20 year substance misuse strategy that concentrates on harm reduction. We have also advocated a generational strategy to tackle hate or power-based crime which would be part of a child’s primary school education.

These should be a policy goal to reduce the overall prison population.  Too many mentally ill people are incarcerated.  And the overcrowded prisons tend to be the ones where the bullying, self-harm, violence and suicides are more prevalent. The high prison population plays is key in creating these conditions.
 

TheLawMap: Recently, there was a UK government consultation on domestic violence which reads as “at present, there is no specific offence of domestic abuse outlining that coercive and controlling behaviour in intimate relationships is criminal. These behaviours are captured in stalking and harassment legislation, but this does not explicitly apply to intimate relationships. Some experts have argued that this means the law is ambiguous and perpetrators of domestic abuse are committing criminal acts but not being brought to justice. Does the current law sufficiently capture the Government’s non-statutory definition of domestic abuse? Additionally, as a former support worker for Cwm Cynon Women's Aid, do you feel that the current law on domestic abuse needs to be strengthened to offer better protection to victims?

Plaid Cymru believes the law needs tightening to ensure coercive and controlling behaviour can be prosecuted. My party colleague Elfyn Llwyd MP has carried out some sterling work to try and tighten up the law and has recently met with the Home Secretary on this very subject.  He intends to table amendments to the Serious Crime Bill, which if implemented and enforced properly, should result in a sharp rise in reporting, prosecutions and convictions of these offences. It will usher in a degree of protection for victims of domestic abuse that are currently vulnerable.

From my experience in the field, I'd say that this strengthening of the law is long overdue. I can recall numerous cases where this law would have made a difference to the lives of women and their children that have been marred by domestic abuse.

With special thanks to Leanne Wood AM for her valuable time. She can be followed on Twitter and recently held a Facebook questions and answer session. 

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Happiness is just a thing called law

An interview with

Martin Cole

Barrister
&
Mentor to Lawyers

The daily grind of law can be exciting yet challenging, having a profound impact upon the practitioner's well-being. In truth, the environment in which lawyers operate appears at times to have been tailored to elicit feelings of stress. Martin Cole was called to the Bar in 1994 and worked in independent practice and in-house in the UK until 2008 when he moved to Australia. He works with lawyers as a coach and mentor helping them to develop and sustain successful careers and flourishing lives.

TheLawMap: What made you switch from the practice of law to being a mentor and coach to lawyers?

I studied law in the first place because I wanted to understand how systems of control external to myself governed my life. I wanted to know about things like rights, duties, power and accountability and I wanted to help other people make some sense of the law when they needed to.

After about 6 years practice at the bar, I went in-house and I soon found that most of the satisfaction I was getting from my work came from people focused activities such as training, coaching and mentoring, rather from the operational activities.
This development, coupled with some big personal challenges, meant that in recent years I’ve become more interested in understanding how systems within my own mind affect my life. Now my focus lies on how people operate, rather than how the external world operates. What interests me is why we behave in certain ways, why we think the way we do and how we can change ourselves for the better.

So, this led to my interest in moving into coaching, training and mentoring. However, the transition is not complete. It is not easy to shift career direction completely when you have significant family responsibilities, so I am still working managing a team of regulatory compliance professionals whilst building my client portfolio on the side.

TheLawMap: Could coaching potentially benefit lawyers of all levels of experience?
 
If you’re successful, flying high and fully satisfied with the way things are going for you, then coaching probably can’t do much for you. But if you are not in that happy position, coaching can benefit you whatever your level of experience.

Coaching is a reflective process aimed at helping the participant to reach full potential, maximise performance and bring about sustained change. It can help with issues such as career direction and transitions, performance, leadership and work-life balance or integration.

What matters is that you want to make some kind of change or improvement. You may not even know what you need to change, let alone how to go about it, but if you are willing to commit to the process or at least approach it with an open mind, coaching is likely to be able to help you.

From my own experience of being coached, I would say that that the real power in coaching arises in three ways. Firstly, coaching gives you the opportunity to really sustain your focus on the problem you are trying to solve. This is something we are rarely able to do in everyday life. Secondly, the input from the coach often forces you to think about things in a different way or from a different perspective. This enables you to break through your habitual ways of thinking, which are very often what is holding you back. Thirdly, the coach brings no agenda to the encounter other than (hopefully) a desire to help you. This is rare as however well-meaning your friends, family, or colleagues are, they almost have some kind of stake in any significant changes you might want to make and they may not always be best placed to challenge your thinking or provide dispassionate feedback.

One caveat is that you need to find a coach you can connect with. We’ve all met people who seem to be a on a different wavelength to us, and whilst you want your coach to bring something different to the encounter, somebody who doesn’t get you at all is not going to be the right coach for you. It is therefore always best to have an introductory conversation for half an hour or so to check whether a particular coach is likely to suit you.
 
TheLawMap: It is commonly known that a lack of work life balance leads to stress, however, some of us feel that we work better under pressure. What are the conditions that may lead to a stressful life for a lawyer and in career terms, what could be the long term implications of leading a stressful life?

Without some level of demand being placed upon us our lives would not be worth living. We gain satisfaction in life by meeting challenges, mastering skills and delivering on the obligations we have towards others. This exerts pressure on us, but when the goals we are pursuing are attainable, albeit with effort and application, they provide us with a sense of motivation, hope and engagement. This is good stress and is what makes you feel that you work better under pressure.

Bad stress arises when we perceive circumstances as a threat rather than a challenge. Then we experience the fight or flight response that we and other mammals evolved originally to help us survive life-threatening situations. In modern life, this response tends to arise not only when we are faced with genuine threats to our survival, but also when we sense that we don’t have the resources to cope with what is required of us, or when we are thwarted by circumstances outside our control. Thus we experience stress when transport delays make us late for court, when we don’t have time to complete important work before a deadline or when family difficulties arise.

The real problems arise with repeated exposure to this kind of stress, in large part because it leads to a strengthening of the synaptic connections in the part of the brain, that handles our emotional responses - the amygdala. This strengthening sets up a vicious cycle, whereby the amygdala becomes more sensitive and more reactive to circumstances that may be perceived as threatening. We then spend increasing amounts of our time in the unnatural, heightened state brought about by the stress response.Such chronic stress reactions can lead in the long-term anxiety and depression and contribute to physical changes such as increased blood pressure, clogged arteries and even obesity.

It seems to me that there are many aspects of legal practice that inherently mean that stress is a real problem for lawyers. These include workloads, billing systems, time constraints, financial constraints, the high expectations of clients and the high stakes riding on the outcomes of much of what we do. Although there are practical steps lawyers can take to change some of these external factors (for example with managing workloads and expectations), on the whole there is little that can be done to change the reality of legal practice.

I therefore think that that lawyers have to combat stress from within, by self-management. This means focusing on your internal resources, changing your perception of circumstances as they arise, managing your responses to perceived threats and taking active steps to dampen down stress responses as they occur, interrupting the cycle of stress reactivity. There are plenty of ways to do this – such as mindfulness practices, relaxation techniques and working on emotional intelligence.

As somebody who has personally suffered the consequences of chronic stress, I can testify to the fact that this kind of self-management works. It requires effort and usually some guidance, but it can change your life.
 

TheLawMap: Based on your extremely interesting and diverse path in life before deciding to study law at the age of 29, from a coaching perspective, do you have any advice for aspiring lawyers about what they could do as students to better prepare for a career in the legal profession?

 
I’ve thought a lot about this - I’ve even written an e-book about it which is available from my website. On the whole I don’t think legal education and training equip lawyers with all of the various attributes they need in order to thrive in their careers.

Of course, if you are reasonably bright and you do the work, you’ll gain the technical knowledge and practical skills you need. But, lawyers also need the capacity to be able to apply their technical skills effectively, consistently and sustainably over the long term - what I think of as ‘contextual capabilities’. They need to know how to work collaboratively, how to be persuasive and how to provide practical, workable solutions to their clients’ problems. They need self-awareness, empathy and relationship management skills. And, as discussed above, they need to know how to survive in the face of the pressures that are inherent in the way that law is practiced. So my advice to aspiring lawyers is that they should try to develop these contextual capabilities alongside their technical capabilities.

Secondly, and this is again related to self-awareness – I think aspiring lawyers need a clear sense of their strengths, their values and their interests and should then plan how they want their career to unfold based on those three things.  It is when you lose sight of these fundamentals that your career can drift into places that you don’t really want to be in. It can then be hard to set yourself back on course.

TheLawMap: If you could change one thing about the legal profession what would it be?

I’d change the culture that, in some areas of the profession, makes it hard for lawyers to display any signs of ordinary human frailty. It needs to be okay to admit that you are feeling the pressure, that you need a break or that you need more time to take care of your family. I’d also like to see more emphasis on educating lawyers on how to take care of themselves and their careers.

TheLawMap: Is there a personality from the past or present within the ranks of the legal profession or the judiciary who you admire the most?

I had a lot of help when I got started from other members of my chambers at Lamb Building in the Temple. But there are no well-known legal personalities that I would necessarily point to.

These days my greatest admiration is reserved for the ranks of lawyers dealing with public funded criminal, family, housing, immigration cases and the like. They turn up day in and day out to help people who would otherwise not be able to help themselves, even though their own jobs and living standards are constantly being undermined.
 
 

Martin Cole is the author of Good Practice – the 10 essential elements of a modern legal career, in which he develops some of the ideas referred to in this interview. 

He moved to Australia from UK with his Australian born wife in 2008. He has two daughters and now lives in the bushy northern suburbs of Sydney. For someone who grew up in Croydon, in South London, the sight of wallabies grazing on his back lawn in the mornings still makes him think he’s entered some kind of parallel universe.  He follows Crystal Palace FC and these days listens mostly to jazz, blues and soul music as well as whichever Disney power ballad his 6 year old daughter currently favours. His twitter handle is @Lexecoach.

The first six words to the title for this interview is the title of a song by Harold Arlen called 'Happiness is just a thing called Joe'.    

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Motifs of law in the Victorian press & its precious e-shadow

An interview with

Craig Newbery-Jones

Lecturer

Plymouth Law School

at University of Plymouth

Craig Newbery-Jones is fascinated with the depiction of the lawyer in the 19th century legal press and how the debates on regulation bear resemblance to the undertones of contemporary debates on regulation of the legal profession. Future employability is the principal concern for most of today's law students and in this wide ranging interview the discussion also includes the importance of e-learning as well as embedding employability skills to the law degree curriculum.  


TheLawMap: Your PhD thesis, ‘Constructing a Popular Image: The Press Representation of the Bar in Nineteenth Century England', sounds absolutely fascinating. What are the most interesting aspects of 19th century legal history that may draw parallel with today's legal profession?

Thank you! I obviously think it’s fascinating, but I also truly believe that engagement with historical representations of the law and lawyers in sources of popular culture can greatly assist in our understanding of contemporary legal culture. Professional legal issues of the past can, and should, inform contemporary legal problems.

I will just give a brief premise of my research. I explore the representation of the barrister in the press of nineteenth century and its far-reaching effects on themes and motifs found in modern popular culture. The overall aim is to determine whether the press of the nineteenth century is considered to have created a popular public image of the bar, while investigating the nature of this image and the reasons behind its formation. Finally, it analyses the significance of this historical public image in the development of motifs of the lawyer in contemporary popular culture.

One of the most interesting aspects of my research has been examining how the problems facing the bar of nineteenth century England are markedly similar to issues being discussed and debated in relation to the modern profession. The press of the nineteenth century widely reported the bar’s regulatory matters and educational systems, and questioned their suitability to function in the rapidly changing society of Victorian England. At times, the debates are nearly identical to those being undertaken in contemporary society, especially the suitability of legal education and the transparency (or lack thereof) of self-regulation. It is incredibly thought-provoking to analyse how the bar responded to these criticisms in order to examine the legacy of these criticisms today.

Furthermore, it is interesting to see how these criticisms have perpetuated themes and motifs in historical and contemporary popular culture. Criticisms around self-regulation and deficient education have clearly encouraged concepts of the lawyer as greedy, as unethical and as a betrayer of trust, a legacy that we still can’t shake. Sources of popular culture can provide us with a medium through which to explore these ethical issues, interrogate problems in legal practice and examine societal perceptions of the law and lawyers, in order to address problems within the legal profession.

TheLawMap: Has the internet age led to a greater appreciation of legal issues across the globe?
 
I think that the internet age has led to a greater proliferation of sources depicting and discussing pertinent legal issues. I also think that social media and the internet have encouraged a more widespread public awareness of legal issues. Specifically, the digital age has shed light on many fundamental global legal issues and has stimulated dialogue across jurisdictional boundaries. The world has become a much smaller place, and has allowed legal practitioners and scholars to collaborate and explore global legal issues in ways not even envisaged just over a decade ago. Your blog is a testament to this.

However, I don’t believe that this has necessarily led to an increased appreciation or increased interest in legal affairs. The public has always been interested in the law, legal process and lawyers. Throughout modern history, there has always been widespread engagement with the law, specifically criminal law. From the age of public executions to more recent trials by media, the public has always been interested in legal processes and this has never abated. I believe it is the media that has changed, not the interest of the public.

As far as a greater appreciation of legal issues goes, I think the internet has done little to encourage this amongst the general public. I think the recent debates around legal aid exemplify this. While the bar was rightly campaigning against the proposed cuts in order to ensure access to justice and the right to legal representation, a wider public (and press) view was that it was about ensuring financial remuneration. This was simply wrong and is indicative of more general lack of appreciation of legal issues in society. This is something that needs to be addressed. Last week, the TES (Times Educational Supplement, UK) reported how the Church of England had encouraged education ministers to consider teaching Christian commandments as part of the proposed ‘British Values’ curriculum. I believe that it would be more judicious to teach legal rights and legal systems to school pupils. This would encourage a greater appreciation of the law, the legal system and the role of lawyers in society, while engaging the next generation of citizens in this fundamental state institution.
 

TheLawMap: You are passionate about 'embedding employability skills in the undergraduate curriculum'? What are the key challenges?

I am a passionate advocate of experiential learning and embedding employability skills in the legal curriculum. The Legal Education and Training Review (LETR) outlined certain deficiencies in undergraduate education but, more importantly, it has encouraged legal education providers an opportunity to evaluate the sufficiency of their programmes. While there are a number of challenges currently facing legal education in England and Wales, I truly believe that embedding employability skills in the undergraduate curriculum is vital in beginning to surmount these.

One of the greatest challenges in modern legal education is actually defining employability skills, and ascertaining how this can compliment legal education. In a forthcoming article, I outline a revised definition for legal employability skills and advocate how we can provide better education to students for legal and non-legal employment, while also encouraging students to consider more critically the role of the lawyer in society. I believe that there needs to be a clear paradigm through which to develop a comprehensive curriculum of employability in order to allow students to acquire a full ‘employability toolkit.’ We must seriously think about what students need in the twenty-first century workplace and develop tailored employability programmes. This can be difficult to do without clearly defining employability.

Another challenge is finding a place for experiential learning, which includes substantial opportunity for reflection, in legal education. English undergraduate legal education has a strong tradition based around acquiring core substantive knowledge. We need to compliment this by providing experiential learning opportunities that include substantial reflective processes. This may seem difficult but experiential learning must have a place in the law school of the future and must contain reflective components. Reflection is something that is prevalent in all spheres of employment and should be actively encouraged in legal education. Reflection can also ensure that students are able to develop their own skills and isolate their own weaknesses. This process of reflection can also explicitly demonstrate to students the skills they have acquired and developed.

The existing debates around education provide the legal academy an opportunity to holistically consider how law schools can embed general employability skills, legal skills and collective values and attitudes with curricular to better prepare our students for twenty-first century practise.
 

TheLawMap: Please tell us about your work on the development of the VBR (virtual board room), the collaborative environment that gives students the opportunity to work together and prepare caseload work by researching tasks using specific legal resources.
 
The VBR is something I’m extremely proud of. During my lectureship at the University of Exeter, I acted as the law school’s e-learning and digital resource coordinator. In this capacity, I was responsible for a number of curriculum innovations and educational improvements.

One of the most notable projects I was involved in was the first year restructuring project management team. This project completely redesigned the delivery of the first year law degree and created a vehicle for placing employability, experiential learning, problem solving and professional practice at the heart of the law degree. For me personally, one of the most important aims of this project was to ensure that our students could appropriately develop their digital literacy and demonstrate collaborative working skills in order to compete in the contemporary legal marketplace.

To achieve this, I conceptualised the ‘virtual boardroom.’ The VBR was an online collaborative platform that sought to assist students in managing their casework and facilitate more efficient group working. While researching potential software platforms, it was obvious that many existing collaborative sites were not suitable for undergraduate students due to their complexity. In conjunction with Mike Jeffries-Harris (University of Exeter CSSIS e-learning coordinator), we agreed upon an ELGG platform. This allowed us to create a ‘bridge’ between social media platforms and professional collaborative software to encourage engagement and simplify the user experience. Due to his skills and experience, the platform was constructed by Mike and hosted on the law school’s website. This platform included numerous features that were related to employability and collaborative working, a feature of modern employment. These features included:

• Discussion - Within each Firm page there was a discussion tool where students could continue conversations they may have started face-to-face and work remotely using an Adobe Connect Room to videoconference.
• Messages – Allowed students to communicate directly, one to one, or to all the firm members.
• File Upload and Editor – Students were able to upload and share important documents and resources. All the firm’s members could also edit these online.
• Bookmarks – Allowed students to share bookmarks and relevant materials with their firm.
• Twitter and RSS Feeds – Appeared on the students individual dashboards to assist in them remaining up-to-date with news and social media.
• The Wire – Student were able to keep friends and colleagues up-to-date with what they were working on.
• Blog – Students could complete their own personal blog or learning journal space.
• Answers - Students could post questions to the whole Boardroom and receive answers.
• Links to Team Match Software - Students could identify their skills and maximise their roles within the firm.

I am currently piloting a similar project at Plymouth University as part of our ‘Dispute Resolution Skills’ module. Instead of an ELGG platform, we are using the SANSspaceplatform to focus more specifically on constructing and organising case files. Our students work through a case file, from first contact with the client to advocating at trial, to give them experience in all aspects of professional legal skills. I have also developed a specific reflective component to the assessment, in order to encourage the students to evaluate their own development and signpost the skills they should have developed upon completion of the course. This reflection will utilise SANSspace video recording facilities.

TheLawMap: Is there a personality from the past or present within the ranks of the legal profession, legal academia or the judiciary who you admire the most?

That is such a difficult question as I have had the pleasure of working with some phenomenal legal scholars during my career and it would be unfair to isolate just one. This might read like a bit of a roll of honour but I admire them all. Professor David Sugarman (Lancaster University), Professor Chantal Stebbings (University of Exeter), Professor Kim Stevenson (Plymouth University) have all had a profound impact on my career, and Dr Mitchell Travis (University of Exeter) is a brilliant colleague, whose academic scholarship has been an immense inspiration on my current research. Finally, Associate Professor Sue Prince (University of Exeter) has been a phenomenal mentor and a real inspiration. Sue encouraged and guided many of my early ideas when appraising legal education, and I can still rely on her feedback on any ideas I have. I really admire her dedication to education, her commitment to pro bono legal services, and her loyalty to her students. 

Craig is a lecturer in law at Plymouth University Law School. This role involves contributing effectively to the delivery of the LLB programme, teaching on the core Introduction to Law, Legal Systems and Skills, Dispute Resolution and Contract Law modules. This includes module administration, lecturing, workshop tutoring and examination responsibilities. Craig has also been responsible for the development and leadership of a number of other legal modules including Introduction to Law for Law Minors, Effective Legal Problem Solving, Contemporary Legal Issues, and Contract Law for the GDL (Graduate Diploma in Law).

With special thanks to Craig Newbery-Jones for his valuable time. He maintains an active social media presence through Twitter. When is not engaged in lecturing or research, he has a keen interest in music and plays bass in a band based in Exeter. He owns a VW camper van and spends many weekends travelling Devon and Cornwall's beautiful countryside.  

The title of this piece is a reference to the interviewee's passion for Victorian law as well as e-learning for today's students. 






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Laws are made by necessity like paths are made by walking

An interview with

Martin Kopa

Lecturer

Department of Constitutional Law

at Palacky University, Czech Republic

As a lecturer in Law as well as being a law clerk to a judge in the Czech Supreme Administrative Court, Martin Kopa strongly feels that legal education at university level should combine the theory and the practice of law, emphasising the importance of real life interactions with clients. In this fascinating interview he explores the complexity of Czech Republic's constitutional laws, the importance of teaching professional ethics as well as shedding light on his time working for the European Court of Human Rights.


TheLawMap: What makes you so passionate about teaching future lawyers?

Frankly, I didn’t get goose bumps or adrenaline rushes in any of my previous jobs. For that, I still think that teaching law is the best legal job in the world. On the other hand, I think if you only teach law without any practical experience, it may get tricky, which is why I have always tried to combine the two. I believe that being in touch with the practice of law helps me to be better at teaching law and vice versa. It allows me to show the students that some of the abstract concepts of law have a real meaning in everyday life. The opportunity to do so and to help the students understand what happens out there in the ‘real world’ is something that I am immensely grateful for.

TheLawMap: Has the legal system in the Czech Republic changed significantly since you have been involved with law?

Brutally! As a matter of fact, many of the laws that I studied during my time at law school do not exist anymore or they have been amended significantly. We have a new Civil Code which is just huge. It led to the annulment of more than 200  statutes and other legal regulations, and it is different from the old civil law that I had studied. Then there is a pretty new Criminal Code. Procedural codes for these two substantive areas of law get constantly amended and supplemented. There were several changes to our Constitution. Certain areas of administrative law had to undergo major changes (i.e. construction law). If you can believe it, the law on income tax has undergone thirty amendments since 2010. All of this had taken place in the last couple of years. Add to that the impact of EU law. It is clear that it is no longer easy to keep track of what the law actually is.

One of my colleagues once said that nothing would happen if the Parliament adopted no laws in the next ten years. Leaving out the fact that a large mass of the law has to be adopted in order to implement EU directives, I tend to agree with him because Czech law is everything but stable. Besides, the quality of law is not very high. Especially, the procedural side have became a labyrinth of blind alleys. However, I try to remain optimistic and hope that many of the changes are for the good. 

TheLawMap: The Student Legal Aid Office at your university provides pro bono legal support and advice to socially, economically or otherwise disadvantaged individuals. The legal aid clinics run by the university seem to cover wide areas of law. In our conversations, you expressed how you enjoyed these clinics. What makes them so interesting?

They are unique in our country. So far, we are still the only Czech law school, which has a long tradition of allowing the students to undergo a live lawyer-client experience. In Poland, on the contrary, every law school has its own legal clinic. I’m afraid that the potential of legal clinics is still vastly underestimated here in the Czech Republic. I do believe that undergoing a semester or two of clinical experience teaches the students more than a hundred seminars. Richard Grimes of York Law School once said at a certain conference on legal education that we, as teachers and lawyers, have a responsibility to send our students out into the world equipped to understand the role of law. By lecturing and teaching what the law is, in a technical sense is no longer sufficient. The students deserve to understand how the law is applied, as well as what the law is. The only one way of implementing this would be to offer the students an opportunity to apply principles in practice. There is no better way of understanding principles than having to put them into practice and making mistakes that can be corrected, and reflected upon. I am in total agreement with Richard Grimes on this matter and am proud that our law school’s clinic achieve just that. I just wish that all Czech law schools had similar live-client clinics. They’ll be there. We’re just going to have to wait for a while, yet. 

TheLawMap: Please tell us about your work with the Constitutional Court & ECHR where you have worked before.

I’ll go chronologically and therefore I’ll start with the European Court of Human Rights. Working there was really a dream come true for me. When I got the offer to work there I had to keep pinching myself to make sure I wasn’t dreaming. I was there as a trainee in 2011, first, and then in 2012, I got the offer to work there as a temporary registry lawyer. The word temporary meant that I could stay for a maximum of six months/calendar year because I didn’t go through a competition. From September 2012 until June 2013, I lived that dream. It was awesome because the Strasbourg court is a very open institution. I loved the atmosphere and the opportunity to meet so many people one could learn so much from. You could easily find yourself standing in a queue for a cup of coffee just behind Sir Nicolas Bratza, Dean Spielmann, Mark Villiger, Andras Sajó and all the other great personas of the Court, and even talk to them. It was hugely inspirational. Besides, the Czech Registry team is probably the best work team I was a part of. My work consisted of processing applications lodged with the ECHR mainly against the Czech Republic. In June 2013, I had to return home.

I was offered to join the Analytical Department of the Czech Constitutional Court and to become a member of the Department of Constitutional Law of Palacky University Law School where I was a PhD student. As a result of the kindness of the two institutions, I found a way to combine the two roles. I think it was a great combination because these two roles were inter-related. In the analytical department, we prepared analysis on all kinds of subjects, which the judges could use in their decision making on constitutional appeals. They mostly concerned comparative law material or analysis of the case-law of the European Court of Human Rights. The Analytical Department was also in touch with the Government Agent representing the Czech Republic before the ECHR. I had the opportunity to experience the real life implications of the constitutional law upon human rights, which was simply terrific because it allowed me to prove to my students later that constitutional law is a living part of the law, and not just an abstract theory, as the students would usually assume. 

TheLawMap: Does 'the legal process as a means to resolving conflict' have exactly the same meaning everywhere in the world?

That is an intriguing question. I personally think that a legal process does not necessarily require existence of a conflict. To the contrary, the best lawyers should do everything they can to prevent a conflict (especially in civil law). The less they end up in court the better. My understanding of legal processes is more general. It covers everyday lawyer’s work which may or may not involve resolution of a conflict depending on the role one performs. So, in my opinion it seems that the answer is a no. 

TheLawMap: If you could change something within the legal profession, what would it be?

I would want to change the level of respect for professional ethics. That is what I admire so much about Anglo-American lawyers. Legal ethics seems to be the most important set of rules and values for a lawyer to follow, no matter what. In the US, it is the only course which every future lawyer has to pass. After Watergate scandal, where lawyers were involved, the American legal profession said enough is enough, which is why every law school student is taught legal ethics. We have an optional course for our students, which we have developed with the help from our friends from the US and UK, in particular, I would like to mention Jim Moliterno of Washington & Lee University, Philip Genty of Columbia University, Leah Wortham of Catholic University of America, Nigel Duncan of City Law School in London as well as others.

Students have at least a little opportunity to give some thoughts to the issues of attorney-client relationship, confidentiality, conflict of interest, impartiality and independence of judges and so on. Once again, it is important for them to realize that when you say legal ethics, it’s not about Aristotle, Plato and the philosophers of ancient Rome, as many lawyers seem to think. They are values that every lawyer will face one day in their professional lives. Yet, when we had our students interview practising lawyers on professional ethics, the majority of them responded that they never faced an ethical issue in their practice. For Pete’s sake, whenever a client opens the door and makes a phone call, that is where the ethics come in, too! 

Not so long ago, there was a huge controversy in the Czech Republic concerning a lawyer, who had raised an unfounded racist objection towards an expert in a criminal case against his extreme right-wing client, charged with promoting Nazism, just because the expert had a name which sounded Jewish (Mazel). Surprisingly, quite a lot of lawyers in the Czech Republic still think that behaviour as such is perfectly acceptable because a lawyer has a duty to do everything he or she can to defend a client. I totally disagree. On the contrary, lawyers have a duty to tell their clients in certain cases: “I’m not going to be forced into doing such a thing.”

TheLawMap: What are you passionate about outside of law?

Good question! Law consumes a big part of my life, certainly more than it should. For that reason, I enjoy the little moments spent at home with my girlfriend just relaxing and talking about every other subject but law. Apart from that, I’m a huge ice-hockey fan. I actually used to play ice-hockey to a high level for 11 years. I was a goalie. Therefore, I follow closely the US-Canadian National Hockey League and Czech Extraleague. Additionally, I must confess to being a huge football fan, especially of the English Premier League. Since 1996, I support Manchester United despite the fact that players now leave it to play Champions League (what a loss with Danny Welbeck leaving to join Arsenal!). 

But passionate? I must add English language and everything connected to it. When I was younger I even enjoyed studying different English accents of English and attempted to speak in these accents! Even now, whenever I speak to a native English speaker, I try to speak in the same accent that he or she does. But, I must admit that I had to give up in Newcastle because Geordie English is just inimitable!

Last but not least, I must add movies. I don’t watch as many of them as I used to when I was younger, though. When I was in secondary school, I was a movie freak and I watched movies all the time. Sadly, I don’t watch them that much anymore. I read law books and case-law instead. The stories in them are equally thrilling. 

Martin Kopa is a law lecturer at the Department of Constitutional Law of Palacky University, Faculty of Law in the Czech Republic. In addition, he works as a law clerk of a judge of the Czech Supreme Administrative Court. He has also worked at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France, and the Czech Constitutional Court before that. In his academic work, he focuses mainly on public law issues and legal education.

With special thanks to Martin Kopa for his valuable time. He maintains an active social media presence through Twitter. 


The second part of the title for this interview, '..Paths are made by walking' is a quote from Franz Kafka, a trained Czech lawyer, but better known as perhaps the most influential writer of the 20th century.



________________

“To be left alone is the most precious thing one can ask of the modern world”

An interview with

Dr Paul Bernal

Lecturer 

Information Technology, Intellectual Property and Media Law

at University of East Anglia Law School

Paul Bernal is fascinated with the concept of privacy and what is means to us in this socially connected world. His background is unusual for a legal academic. His first degree was in Mathematics and he has been a Chartered Accountant, done pioneering work in the early days of the internet, and had been the finance director of a mental health and criminal justice charity.
 

TheLawMap: Is privacy a modern concern? Did we think about privacy differently as a society before the age of the internet?

It’s interesting – privacy gets attacked from both directions. Some say privacy is a modern concern, that we didn’t care about it in the past – they often put forward some kind of image of an idealised ‘village’ or ‘small town’ life where everyone knew everything about everyone else and all was harmonious and wonderful. Others say that privacy is out-dated – Mark Zuckerberg’s famous comment that ‘privacy is no longer a social norm’ is perhaps the best example of this.

I don’t think either are right – I think the desire and need for privacy is something inherent in our humanity. It manifests itself differently depending on the circumstances, but we all want it, and we always have. Look at the Catholic Church’s system of confessions – behind it lies the idea that we have things that we want to share only with God, not with people in the ‘material world’. Almost all religions have something similar. It’s not about hiding things – but about what matters to us. Zuckerberg and others’ ideas that young people don’t care about privacy are equally misguided and misconceived – as anyone with a child should realise. My daughter already valued and demanded her privacy when she was three – she wanted to do things privately, have secrets shared with her friends and so forth. Teens who share stuff on Facebook can be devastated to know that their parents or teachers have access to them. What we like about privacy depends on what our situations – and on who has power over us.

TheLawMap: In a recent blog post you referred to ‘the death of privacy’. Does privacy pose the same level of threat within a democracy as it may do to an authoritarian state?

Actually I think precisely the opposite. Privacy doesn’t really threaten a democracy – in helps it and supports it. It’s a contentious view, I realise, and something I’m working on putting into written form. Ultimately, privacy increases trust and supports the key civil liberties that are the lifeblood of a democracy. Without privacy, we can’t have freedom of speech – people are far less likely to speak out, or seek out information that the ‘authorities’ might view as suspicious if they feel they’re under surveillance. A true democracy should be willing to trust its population – not view everyone as suspicious, as a potential terrorist or subversive. It’s hard for authorities to make the philosophical leap required – but in the end I suspect they may have to, or lose the trust of the people.

TheLawMap: Each day we create new social media entries and participate in shared content. You wrote an academic paper about 'A right to delete' published in the European Journal of Law and Technology. Is the notion of a privacy friendly internet just a dream? 

In some ways the right to delete hangs in the balance right now. From a legal perspective, the reform to the Data Protection regime which includes the formal ‘right to be forgotten and to erasure’ is the subject of intense negotiation. There is a vote on Monday 21st October – but even after that there is a long way to go. In California what’s been labelled a ‘poor man’s right to be forgotten’ has been voted through – but it’s not nearly as potent as the real thing.

On the other hand, people are starting to demand the right to delete, and service providers are beginning to respond. It’s possible (though hard) to delete your Facebook account these days, for example. As people demand it, companies will respond. In many ways this is likely to be a much more practical way than demanding laws. Ultimately, when people want it enough, companies will respond.

TheLawMap: I read your thoughts on the Draft communication bill with interest. What concerned you the most about this draft bill?

The Communications Data Bill was withdrawn, after a great deal of pressure and hard work from advocates – my submission was one of thousands – so from a legal perspective it doesn’t exist. The real problem, though, is that all the information we’ve now got from Edward Snowden has made it pretty clear that the surveillance envisaged in the Bill was already taking place – the Bill seems to have been some kind of attempt to get retrospective authority for something GCHQ and others were doing regardless of the law! All those concerns, therefore, are still concerns – all those risks are still real risks, and need to be taken seriously. I think the politicians are starting to wake up to the fact that the wool was pulled over their eyes by the intelligence services, and they’re not happy about it. They shouldn’t be!

TheLawMap: In your opinion, Is there any difference in how privacy is viewed by citizens across the world?

As I said in my answer to the first question, I think privacy is something that we all care about – and always have. There are cultural differences – different things matter to different people in different ways – but we all care about our privacy. There are those who would like to claim, for example, that in parts of Asia they don’t care about privacy, and to suggest that privacy is some kind of ‘western’ concept being imposed upon them. From my experience I would say they’re quite wrong. When I teach Asian students – and in my main privacy class at the UEA last year we had Chinese, Thai and Indian students amongst others – it is very clear that they do care about privacy, and care about it very much. Generally when people say things like ‘privacy isn’t a value for us’ I find there is some kind of self-interest involved: it suits authoritarian regimes, for example, to say that it’s OK for us to use surveillance because our citizens don’t care about privacy. It’s a similar story to that with Mark Zuckerberg – Facebook would very much like privacy no longer to be a social norm. it serves them to suggest that, just as it serves a dictator to suggest that the citizens of their country don’t mind being under constant surveillance. That doesn’t make it true.

TheLawMap: I was intrigued by your Symbolic Web Theory. What would be the human rights implication of this theory if it could be implemented across the world? 

You’ll have to wait for my book ‘Internet Privacy Rights’ to come out next year for a proper answer to that question – but ultimately I believe that understanding the implications of the theory is one of the keys to building a more privacy-friendly internet. The theory suggests that we’re in a symbiotic relationship with the big providers on the internet: we depend on their ‘free’ services, they rely on being able to gather and use our data. If we understand that relationship – and understand our power within that relationship, we can start to take a bit more control over how the internet works, and help to demand a more ‘privacy-friendly’ net. A more privacy-friendly net can aid human rights all over the world. That, however, is very much a simplification. The book will come out in early 2014 – you can learn more then.

TheLawMap: What attracts a student to study the areas of law that you take a special interest in?

Three main things, I would say. Firstly, it is an area that they can relate to – all students use the internet, the vast majority use Facebook, Twitter and so on, and most have concerns about their privacy. Secondly, they can see that this is an area of increasing interest and concern – and might well be an area where work opportunities expand. Thirdly, they think it could be fun! This is far from a dry area of law.

TheLawMap: If you could change something within the legal profession, what would it be?

It may not seem to have a direct relationship to my own work, but the thing that bothers me the most at the moment is the way that access to justice is being attacked, and the way that poorer people, more vulnerable people, are almost certain to be squeezed out. What Grayling is doing to Legal Aid is nothing short of disastrous – so we need to do everything we can not just to oppose it but to reverse it.

TheLawMap: I understand that you are a passionate supporter of Wolverhampton Wanderers and love football. English Premiership clubs spent over 620 million pounds in the recent player transfer window with many lawyers and agents taking a significant role in the negotiations between the clubs and the players. Is money ruining the beautiful game?

I’m afraid money isn’t ruining the game – it has already ruined the game. Football isn’t the game it was. I still love it, and even when my team are doing very badly (we’ve just suffered two successive relegations) I don’t in any way lose interest. Now, however, it’s much more a commercially packaged experience, much less about real passion. There are good things about the new game – more ‘family-friendly’ games, far less racism (though it hasn’t gone away completely) and much more comfortable and attractive stadiums even in the lower divisions – but the depth of feeling seems to have gone. I suppose it’s inevitable, but that doesn’t make it particularly good. Mind you, I still get a lovely feeling of tension and excitement with pretty much every game, so it can’t be all bad!

With special thanks to Paul Bernal for his valuable time. He maintains an active social media presence through Twitter and his engaging personal blog sharing thoughts on law, politics and society, but usually with a subtext of privacy.  


The title of this interview, 'To be left alone is the most precious thing one can ask of the modern world' is a quote from Homage to Qwert Yuiop, by Anthony Burgess, published in the United States as But Do Blondes Prefer Gentlemen?

'No more the meek & mild subservience', arise Madam Counsel

An interview with

Jane Needham SC

Senior Counsel

& 

President,

New South Wales (NSW) Bar, Australia

Jane Needham is a very busy lawyer. A Senior Counsel (SC) in Australia, she juggles a frenetic silk's career and that of being the President of the NSW Bar with raising a young family. Her present commitments also include being involved with the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. A strong feminist with a passion for Henry James and medieval English romantic literature, we are absolutely delighted that she found some time to share her thoughts with TheLawMap.  

TheLawMap: Does 'the legal process as a means to resolving conflict' has exactly the same meaning everywhere in the world?

I am not by any means an international lawyer, but as the answer would differ even from lawyer to lawyer I would have to say “no”. In Australia, there is a move towards civil and administrative Tribunals rather than adversarial Court proceedings, and a growing focus on ADR (alternative dispute resolution). However, there remains a role for the higher courts. The Australian Productivity Commission is conducting (yet another) inquiry into access to justice issues, and it will be interesting to see what comes out of that.


TheLawMap: From reading 14th century tales like Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to being involved in a Royal Commission relating to child sexual abuse within the Catholic Church, you've had a really interesting path to being where you are presently, a silk and a senior member of the Australian Bar. What made a student of Medieval English and Linguistics take up Law?

I started my law career when I was 27, and came straight to the Bar (not completely usual here), and have been here ever since, with a “sabbatical” after about 8 years and two breaks for maternity leave. I had my first child in 2002, and was appointed silk in 2004, from a part-time practice at that point.

It was the realisation that a degree in Mediaeval English was very unlikely to provide me with work, particularly as I lived in Australia and wasn’t really interested in an academic career, that prompted me into looking elsewhere. I finished my Arts degree and travelled for a year, landing a job as a receptionist in London. After a while they gave me some event-organising and customer support duties, and I became pretty good at being a personal assistant, and I realised that unless I did something a little more challenging I was unlikely to do anything but fancier personal assisting. On my return to Australia two things happened – my father (then on the bench of the NSW Supreme Court) offered me a job as his Associate (see: above re my personal assistant skills!) and my flatmate suggested I join her in studying law at night, so she would have someone to come home with on the train. Being an obliging sort of person, I said yes to both, and here I am.

TheLawMap: What are the main areas of law you take a special interest in?

Currently I am engaged almost full-time in inquiries dealing with child sexual assault, and will be for the foreseeable future (see Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse). However, my real legal love is equity, trusts and succession, perhaps because of my early exposure to the Equity Division as an Associate, but also because most of the law relating to that area can go back to the 1600s or 1700s and those case reports are very short! I really enjoy all aspects of succession law, particularly as I have a fascination with other people’s lives and how they choose to live them. The deceased in such a case is central, and yet absent, and holds a compelling sway over the proceedings.

I am also interested in revenue, although I do not do much of it, but I like to do the occasional revenue case so I can say that my work is “death and taxes”.

TheLawMap: Recently elected Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott's first cabinet seem a little short in female representation. Is the political sphere any representation of life in general and more specifically, is there still a glass ceiling in Australia for women aspiring to be leaders in their chosen field?

I could talk for hours about this! I think the treatment meted out to Julia Gillard, our first female Prime Minister, was really shameful, and marked a low in political debate. I was one of the many women who cheered out loud at the misogyny speech.

The lack of women in the Coalition cabinet indicates, to me, a typical result of the requirement of “selection on merit” when the definition of “merit” is measured against traditional norms. Unfortunately this is true of both sides of politics – as can be seen when the most talented Labor candidate for leader after Gillard’s retirement, Tanya Plibersek, was described by Bob Hawke, former prime minister, as not being suitable as she had a three-year-old child. Hawke’s candidate for leader, Bill Shorten also has a three-year-old child. The assumptions made about competency of women tend to be made against old expectations – that they won’t really be interested in working if they have a family, that they’re not up to the pressure, and the like. So “merit” is harder to achieve for women in a man’s world. It beggars belief that the only “competent” candidates for a cabinet post all, bar one, just coincidentally happened to be male.

I don’t think political life does reflect general life, but as in anything, female role models are a must if young women are to overcome “imposter syndrome” and seize opportunities like their brothers. I think that having women in positions of power and influence also show young men that women are their equals. Unfortunately, I think Gillard’s treatment will put many women off choosing a career in politics.

I am glad, though, that my daughter spent the last three years with women in the roles of Prime Minister, Governor-General, Governor of NSW and Lord Mayor of Sydney. I recently spoke at a swearing in, where the judge and three of the four speakers were women, and I took her along, just to assist in the normalisation of images of women doing jobs well.  

TheLawMap: What is it like juggling a young family and life as a Senior Counsel?  
 
I also juggle being Senior Vice-President of the Bar Association. The fact that it took me two weeks to get back to you might just indicate the answer! I have three young children – a daughter and twin sons, all currently at primary school. My life is a bit chaotic and I think it is fair to say that I do not have Mondayitis – on Mondays I come into chambers to find a quiet, calm, TIDY environment where people (generally) do what I ask them to. I try very hard to spend either the beginning or the end of the day (including a meal) with the children. Usually it’s breakfast, and I take them to school, so my working day starts around 9.30 am. I’m sure those who see me turn up at that time each day think I have a very relaxed existence, but by that time I have been giving the advocacy and mediation skills a proper workout. If I have to leave for work early I try to leave so I am home for the dinner/bath/bed routine. I also try very hard not to work on weekends, and that often means late nights or reading at home. I am a little wary of taking the current work home as my children are voracious readers and a lot of it is not suitable for anyone, let alone children!

It goes without saying that my husband is the best person on earth.

TheLawMap: Judging by your tweets you seem to take an interest in issues relating to protecting the environment and climate change? In your opinion, are there enough legal safeguards in Australia towards protecting the environment?

I don’t think that there are. Australia will be enormously adversely impacted by climate change, and yet, despite hard evidence of anthropogenic warming, very little is being done and in fact aspects of environmental protection and research are now being wound back. In particular, I am horrified by the prospect of losing the Great Barrier Reef. We go there every year or so for a week on a very low-key island to snorkel with turtles and mantas, and the thought that that beautiful biological diversity may be held hostage to financial interests is devastating.

TheLawMap: As a lawyer, what keeps you going every day?

Every day is different! Not every day is good, of course, and almost every day has its difficulties, but even after 23 years in the profession I am continuing to learn. My recent lurch this year into inquiries and commissions – a new field for me – demonstrates that continual renewal.
 

TheLawMap: If you had one wish to change something within the legal profession, what would it be?

I would like to see an acceptance of flexible work practices within it – not just a statement on a website, but real, actual change. I think this may be changing slowly, but there remains a crushing expectation to put in extraordinarily long hours. Of course when there is a need to work hard and long, it has to be done, but there is a view that a 10-hour day is for wimps. I fully accept that my circumstances are not everyone’s, but I have been able (with a LOT of planning) to work part-time for about five years of my career, and as far as I can see nobody has been adversely affected by that. I think the bravado about long hours forces women to make choices they might rather not make (whether it is in partnership, or as a parent). It remains the general case that the woman in a (heterosexual) partnership is the one to make those choices, not the male, and that results in the loss of some extremely good lawyers from the profession. Real acceptance of flexible work practices will result in men feeling empowered to take that route – currently it is socially acceptable for women to do it, much less so than men – and the world could only be a better place.


With special thanks to Jane Needham for her valuable time. She is a graduate of UNSW in Mediaeval English and Linguistics (1984) and later an LLB with 1st class honours from UTS (1989). She was admitted to the Bar in 1990 and appointed silk in 2002.  

Jane Needham SC

What became apparent through our interaction during this intreview is just how affable she appears to be alongside being a formidable lawyer. A casual glance at what she herself described as a 'quick and dirty bio' explains all her passions in life. She is an ardent admirer of the musician Billy Bragg, lists her favourite books as Malory, Le Morte D’Arthur and Henry James, Portrait of a Lady, and her absolute favourite place is Lady Elliot Island, Great Barrier Reef, Queensland. That her favourite food is, 'something that is not eaten standing up or at my desk' is a testament to how well she manages to juggle her time between the roles of being a busy professional and mum! Her passion for equal rights for women is summed up by her favourite song, Sister Suffragette from the film Mary Poppins.